Posts by Olin Moyles Ghost

60

Did you loathe going in field service, if so why?

by HappyGuy in

jw
friends

i always felt like i was not a "spiritual" person because i loathed going in field service.

i'm not even sure why i loathed it.

i am very outgoing and can talk to anyone, anytime, about anything.

Olin Moyles Ghost

Yes, I disliked field service. Riding around in a car with friends wasn't so bad--in fact we had fun sometimes. But bothering people at their homes to sell them religious literature...not so much.

Sometimes JWs try to get me to come back by reminding me of the good times we had in service and in other JW activities. What they fail to realize is the good times were not the result of the JW activities...rather the good times were in spite of the JW activities.

Even as a believing JW, I thought field service was a complete waste of time. In fact, I thought it contradicted the Golden Rule--I sure didn't want people coming to my door pushing religion, so why should I do that to other people?

This (the Golden Rule) was also my rationale for never participating in "telephone witnessing"--or, as I called it, "telemarketing." I never bought anything from a telemarketer. I thought they were the lowest form of life on the planet. So, why in the world would I become one?

44

ASK YOURSELF this question and see what your answer is....

by Terry in

i'm going to ask you a question.

but first, i'm going to set the question up properly.. the original christianity became officially established when the catholic church found constantine as its protector and defender in the mid 4th century.. that church grew mighty, powerful and exerted an influence over vast reaches of the earth.. the church had an absolute fetish for anything of nature deemed "holy" that might be a relic of jesus or his apostles or (as time went by) any saint.. this took the form of conserving the true cross, splinters from the true cross (one in the pope's ring!

) the bones of martyrs, robes, chalices, knuckles, fingers, etc.

Olin Moyles Ghost

Great thread. I've long wondered why God couldn't have simply preserved the original writings of the Bible. It shouldn't be that hard...for the CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE.

And there are other "original" religious writings that have survived. I'm thinking of the hieroglyphs in Egypt. These are thousands of years old. If ancient pagan "false religious" writings could be preserved for thousands of years, why couldn't God have done the same for the books of the Bible?

84

question for theMadJW and other Wt apologists

by isaacaustin in

on what basis do you make the claim that the leadership of the jw's, aka governing body, is the organization god is and has been working through continuously since 1919?.

Olin Moyles Ghost

Isn't it funny how rank & file JWs think that their religious leaders are somehow different from the "clergy" that they rightly despise. But the Watchtower religious leaders are more than happy to call themselves "clergy" whenever it serves their purposes.

For example, when JW elders want to weasel out of testifying in criminal court against one of their "brothers" who has been accused of child molestation, they try to assert the "clergy-penitent privilege." See, for example, http://www.pe.com/localnews/inland/stories/PE_News_Local_C_trial06.439464c.html.

And let's take a quick look at one of the "truths" that the Governing Body is taking the lead in preaching: namely, that very soon (imminently, in fact), God is going to kill BILLIONS of men, women, and children because they are not baptized, active Jehovah's Witnesses. And did I mention that at least TWO BILLION of these victims have never had a chance to hear the JW message? (China, large parts of India and the Muslim world)

If this is not true (and it's not), then the Governing Body is guilty of slandering God in the worst way imaginable.

So, keep on telling yourself that the Governing Body is different from the other religious charlatans of today...some of us know better.

145

GETTING SUCKED IN? Ask the right questions to get the right answers.

by Terry in

it is too easy to get sucked in to the wrong argument at the wrong time.. asking the wrong question leads to the wrong answer.

a wrong answer does nobody any real good.. i once had a heated discussion with an old friend who is still an active jehovah's witness.. he came back at me with this:.

"okay, then--if jehovah's organization is a false religion, where is the true one?

Olin Moyles Ghost

But how do you know that God spoke to you? Isn't that your perception? Thus, you're relying on (and trusting in) your perception.

145

GETTING SUCKED IN? Ask the right questions to get the right answers.

by Terry in

it is too easy to get sucked in to the wrong argument at the wrong time.. asking the wrong question leads to the wrong answer.

a wrong answer does nobody any real good.. i once had a heated discussion with an old friend who is still an active jehovah's witness.. he came back at me with this:.

"okay, then--if jehovah's organization is a false religion, where is the true one?

Olin Moyles Ghost

Haven't you all had enough of humans being the ultimate determiner of reality? I know that I personally have.

Oh really? So, what is the "ultimate determiner of reality" for you? Does God speak to you?

Or do you get your information from books (written by men), at church (where the pastor is a man), and from the Bible (which is a collection of books written by men, then compiled by men, then translated by men)?

9

Note reference to 607 B.C.E. on page 30, COC

by Butterflyleia85 in

"we found absolutely nothing in support of 607 b.c.e.

all historians pointed to a date twenty years later.

".

Olin Moyles Ghost

Terry, that's a great observation. I think it all boils down to your starting point, or null hypothesis. For example, if your null hypothesis is that Jerusalem fell in 607 BC or that Jesus became "invisibly present" in 1914, then you will view all facts in the light most favorable to your position and you'll find a way to disregard contrary evidence.

That's one of the things that makes it so difficult for most JWs to see the light. They're ingrained with these beliefs regarding 607, 1914, etc. Thus, to the extent they'll even discuss such matters, they require incontrovertible proof that 607 is wrong or 1914 is wrong. And it's impossible to prove a negative. Therefore, these JWs stick with it "just in case" the WTS is right about these dates. Of course, the practice of shunning contributes to this mindset as well.

33

Over half the world population have never heard of Jehovah's Witnesses

by alanv in

just looked through some of the largest populations in the world and ten of them add up to 3,500,000,000. how many witnesses serve these 10 countries.

no more than 60,000. the largest are china and india which together have around 2.5 billion people.

so is the jw good news being spread earthwide.

Olin Moyles Ghost

Blondie, I've heard that justification as well--namely that just like Jesus said the disciples wouldn't complete the circuit of the cities, the JWs may not make it to every country. The problem is that--as Mad Sweeney points out--such an interpretation contradicts Matt. 24:14. Either the good news must be preached in all the inhabited earth before the end comes...or it doesn't. Jesus said yes; the WTS said no.

This is a great example of the sort of theological pretzels into which the WTS ties itself. The WTS must emphasize the importance of its preaching work (hence the constant use of Matt. 24:14) but it must also make it seem like The End is imminent. If Matt. 24:14 really means what it says, then The End CANNOT be imminent. Thus, the WTS must twist Matt. 24:14 to mean something that it does not say--namely that the gospel must be preached to some portion of the inhabited earth before The End comes.

And to think we actually took this nonsense seriously...

72

ANOTHER GILEAD STUDENT

by not sure yet in

i've been reading this forum a for some time now.

since i find myself on a crossroad i decided to start participating.

i was at gilead in 1980 and remember standing in de elevator alone with ray franz, how just gave us a lecture.

Olin Moyles Ghost

Welcome to the board. If you would like to reconnect with Ray, his email address is [email protected]. He is up in years, as you know, but he does a good job responding to emails. It may take a few days, but you'll hear back from him.

33

Over half the world population have never heard of Jehovah's Witnesses

by alanv in

just looked through some of the largest populations in the world and ten of them add up to 3,500,000,000. how many witnesses serve these 10 countries.

no more than 60,000. the largest are china and india which together have around 2.5 billion people.

so is the jw good news being spread earthwide.

Olin Moyles Ghost

The realization that (1) JWs really teach that you must be a JW to survive Armageddon and (2) billions of people have never heard of JWs was a key factor in my "awakening." In fact, my first topic posted on this board related to this issue.

I've heard the "community responsibility" cop-out. As far as I know, it's still an official doctrine, but I don't think it's been mentioned in print in a long time (decades, perhaps). Only older or more studious JWs would be familiar with it today.

I've found that most modern JWs--especially those in their 20s and 30s--don't believe you must be a JW to survive Armageddon. Rather, they believe that God and Jesus will read people's hearts. That's what I used to believe. The problem is that this doctrine is not in WT publications. In fact, it contradicts established JW doctrine (for example, the "mark for survival" in Ezekiel).

When I point this out to JWs, they fall back on the "trust in Jehovah" line and say that they're just leaving it in his hands. The important thing now is to be active in the preaching work in order to avoid bloodguilt. Of course, by saying that preaching is required to avoid bloodguilt, this is a tacit admission that God will kill people who don't receive the JW message. So, either way the JWs can't win. The circular logic is making me dizzy.

60

The Rise of the Conscious Class

by truthseeker in

jw
friends

"i believe in one god, and no more; and i hope for happiness beyond this life.

i believe the equality of man, and i believe that religious duties consist in doing justice, loving mercy, and endeavoring to make our fellow-creatures happy.

but, lest it should be supposed that i believe many other things in addition to these, i shall, in the progress of this work, declare the things i do not believe, and my reasons for not believing them.

Olin Moyles Ghost

Great post by the OP. In addition to the "conscious class," I know lots of JWs, especially "born-ins" under age 45, who could probably be classified as "potential future members of the conscious class."

These include the childless married couples who both work full-time, drive nice cars, own a home, and take lots of vacations. These include the parents who are encouraging their children to attend university. These include the men in their 30s who have no interest in serving as MS or elders and are happy to put in their 6-8 hours of "service" per month. They're the ones that last week's WT classified as "coasting along" in the congregation.

It's just another religion to these folks. They don't feel any burning desire to witness to others. They don't do any personal study aside from spending five minutes underlining the WT before the Sunday meeting. Deep down, they know something is wrong, but there are forces keeping them from taking any further action (primarily family, friends, and "where else can we go?"). But when the status quo changes--for example, if a family member is DF'd--that may be the catalyst for taking the next step.

The WTS knows that there are LOTS of these JWs out there--especially in the USA and other developed countries.